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helmsman
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Joined: 13 April 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 16
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| Posted: 21 October 2005 at 5:10pm | IP Logged
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I just bought KC597 in restorable condition and I am looking for some advice on bringing it to racing trim. As it stands it has no mast to speak of, ( although it came with a rotating non tapered mast which must have been part of Uffa Fox's original design, curious by today's AL standards) ancient rudder, ancient c/b and ancient sails. All of these will be retired in favour of newer versions. I can make or buy these as my skills and time allow. Now, the hull- lots of questions here, mostly relating to modifications. The goal is to sail fast in comfort (as much as a racing rig will allow).
Issue 1:
The seats are hideous, they look like railroad station benches and there are no enclosed tanks. The grain even goes athwartships, it assaults my eye.I wouldn't object to ripping them out and starting anew.Alternatively, they can be refurbished as they are and have bags installed underneath or I can build them into tanks. They don't extend to the transom. Does anyone have any advice on a strategy here?
Issue 2:
There is no bulkhead under the foredeck, just a little hanging bracket to support the front of the seats. How much bulkhead is necessary here? Can it be open with a flotation bag under the deck or should I take my cue from Ontario Yachts and make it a fully enclosed tank? While we're on it what about tanks? What's the best arrangement for easy righting and draining?
Issue 3:
The centreboard trunk has some rot in the sides so it looks like I'll have to replace it. Does anyone have some advice on the construction of the new one?
Issue 4
The thwart will be coming out what with all this hacking and chopping and when it goes back in I'm wondering where to place it. Some boats have it forward and some aft. I would, of course, make sure that the trunk is well supported where the load is when sailing, no matter where the thwart ends up, but I am curious about crew comfort and for and aft balance. Any comments?
Ta Ta For Now
Brian Muir
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bigbad
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Joined: 30 May 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 91
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| Posted: 21 October 2005 at 7:46pm | IP Logged
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Good find!
Yes of course you have at your disposale many Albacore sailors that would be more than willing to help.
Below is my email address. I would like to suggest that you start by posting a few pictures of your boat. I have used YahooPhoto's.
georgianbaymarina@sympatico.ca
Currently I am restoring and bringing up to race condition a recently purchased 1977 wooden Albacore. This is my third restoration project in 4 years. Love to share experience. If you are close by I would make the trip and see first hand your new boat.
Jeff Beitz
Parry Sound Ont.
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Peter Duncan
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| Posted: 22 October 2005 at 5:00am | IP Logged
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Brian-
Great to hear you have Albacore 597. Here is a bit of history on the boat. My records show it was imported by Canadian Northern Company in a lot of boats #589-599 probably in 1960. The 1963 CAA Yearbook shows it as owned by Alan Clark (Toronto and Kettles Sailing Club, Muskoka). This was most likely the original owner. You should find a builder's serial #909 stamped in the transom.
I'd be interested to hear where you found her and her history over the past 45 years. Has she been in Muskoka the whole time? Be sure to add her and what history you know to the Albacore Registry.
Sounds like your intention is to bring her up to modern standards as a racing boat. This is what I did to Fairey Marine #342 about 14 years ago. I did a complete rebuild and upgrade. The only original wood left in 342 is the hull- new decks, new seats/tanks, new centerboard case, new spars, new foils. All woodwork was done with mahogany marine ply, western red cedar, white oak rub strakes and some lighter color accent woods. WEST System epoxy was used for all bonding and coating. There are no fasteners in the construction, other than what Fairey put in the hog and keel and I did not want to try to remove.
I have photos and drawings of most of my progress, and I'd be happy to share what I learned. I learned/invented woodworking and other techniques as I did the job, so some things are "unique" to me. There are things I'd do differently today as materials have changed or I've learned the errors of my ways (things that were not built smartly or well). That said, Never Again! (#342) is still racing and fairly competitive. My son raced her in his first club race a month ago and won!
She is fit out with SuperSpars mast/boom, Sobstad sails, a Jolly Woodman centerboard and home built rudder blade. If you find your way to the Washington, DC area you can see her (and my 29 year old Woof Albacore) to get ideas about how you might do your rennovation.
I will "warn" you that the rennovation job was MUCH bigger than I expected. My father named her "Never Again!" after he spent months refinishing and modernizing her when she was only 12 years old. I then had her out of the water from 1980 to 1992 doing my work on her...and I felt the name was more than appropriate (I must admit she sat untouched for 6 of those years while I lived in California). That said there is probably about 500-1000 hours of work ahead of you to do the tasks you describe.
Rebuilding the centerboard case without too much damage to the hog and loss of hull shape is probably the most difficult job (you might look at the forum posting on "Dry Rot" before you tackle this task).
I would recommend building a strong back and frame to preserve hull shape before you take anything apart. As a further precaution I kept my deck on until I had rebuilt the CB, seats, tanks and thwart to preserve the shape. Then I removed and rebuilt the deck. These hulls become very floppy once you remove the supporting structure.
Get a copy of the class rules (on this site) and read them carefully BEFORE you start taking things apart. Anything you change must be brought up to current rules. For example, today you can have a rotating mast as that is original to the boat...once you change your mast, you MUST bring it to current standard which is a non-rotating mast. A few of the rules about hull structure may have changed. If you tear into these parts of the hull (v. restoring them as is) then you must bring them into compliance with current rules. So think through what you want to change or not change before you start pulling things apart.
When you remove fittings and the like- save them. In fact, I'd be happy to take any original Fairey fittings you don't want to keep. They are hard to find (particularly blocks and brass/bronze parts) and I've become somewhat of a clearinghouse for people trying to do original Fairey restorations (as opposed to modernizations). One day when I find the right hull, I'd like to do a fully authentic restoration to 1950's vintage, so I'm collecting parts. Stick them in a box and I'll pick them up in route to our family cottage in Muskoka next summer, and I'd love to see your handiwork at that time.
Sounds like you have an exciting project. I look forward to answering your specific questions from my experience. I'm sure Jeff and some of the folks in the UK will offer opinions too. You will find we often have divergent opinions and that will leave you with the option to sort out what is best for you. Keep photos and notes and post them here (or link to a site where you post them) so that others can benefit from this collective wisdom.
Cheers,
Peter
Edited by Peter Duncan on 22 October 2005 at 6:17am
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Peter Duncan
Albacore 342 and 6434
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Peter Duncan
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| Posted: 22 October 2005 at 5:40am | IP Logged
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Brian-
In all my rambling I did not address your four questions. I'm going to assume that your goal is a modern racing Albacore with little or no sentimental attachment to how she was originally configured.
Following your questions:
1) Remove seats. Replace with airtight tanks that run from thwart to transom. Leave the area from thwart forward open as a "flooding" tank. This will allow the boat to settle if you capsize making it less likely to turn turtle (as is the case with some of the newest glass boats) and making it easier to reach the centerboard from the water.
Extending tanks to transom will also float the stern of the boat in a capsize keeping it level and able to sail the water out (some glass boats have been built without sufficient aft buoyancy and need to add airbags aft to lift transom). The other benefit of running seat tanks to transom is you make a box structure that adds considerable stiffness and rigidity to the hull.
Be sure to calculate and build total tank volume large enough to provide the 360kg of positive buoyancy required by the rules (4.1.1) and set the placement such that it can support the 270kg of weight (4.1.6).
2) I would make a airtight bow tank. Bags will always be a difficult problem as they are hard to secure in place tending to float out from under strapping in a capsize. I would NOT make a full tank to deck level. This has three problems:
a) the boat is hyper buoyant bringing on the capsize problems noted above,
b) you will depend on the deck to hull joint for an airtight seal. In practice this will be very difficult to maintain- a smaller "half height" tank will be much better and even if there is a bit of weight penalty from building the second structure.
c) you may need to do some rigging of lines (mast benders, jib cunningham and the like) under the bow deck. This is impossible with a full height tank.
Look at a Woof Albacore or Skene Albacore (#6800-7312) for example of how to lay out tanks. Some of the JD Young boats are also good examples.
3) I would build a new CB case with a "rolled down" front end. Look at OY, Skene and Woof Albacores for examples of modern CB case. I built a form and bent strips of wood to make the cap of my centerboard case in 342. Build a solid structure to prevent CB from heeling/flexing the case under working load. There is a lot of pressure on that centerboard when it is in full vertical position.
I would leave the mast step hog "high" as it is built on your Fairey and bring the CB case top down onto it. Check the rules here for max mast step height as you will have to comply with this newer requirement.
4) Thwart should be located fairly far aft. Farther aft than OY and modern Skene boat. Woofs and old Skenes (<6800) are good examples. Thwart should be far enough aft that CB can be positioned more than vertical (cocked 5-10% forward of vertical in very light air conditions). Center of thwart in my Woof is 79" ahead of Aft Measurement Point (AMP).
That should get you going.
Peter
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Peter Duncan
Albacore 342 and 6434
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helmsman
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Joined: 13 April 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 16
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| Posted: 02 November 2005 at 7:16pm | IP Logged
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Thanks for the info guys, you've given me lots to think about.
Tonight I have an observation and several questions.
Observation: I weighed the hull and it came in at 230 pounds. At first I thought that that was a little high, then I put my moisture meter on it. WOW, a whopping 16%. It had been stored in a shed with a soil floor and although it hadn't seen water for ten years the ambient humidity must have been high. So next I did the algebra and crunched some numbers and figured out that if I can drive the moisture content down to 10 percent it'll loose approx. 10 pounds even more if I can get it to 7%. So the first question is: does anybody out there have any experience with this? How long will it take?
Questions: when I put the new deck on it how thick should it be? Quarter inch seems a little thin. That goes for the seats as well, and while we're on seats and tanks, how much internal bracing should there be? I expect that 1/4 inch is ok for the tank in the forefoot since human bodies won't be up there, but for seats I'm not so sure.
tata for now
Brian
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bigbad
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| Posted: 02 November 2005 at 7:59pm | IP Logged
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Brian,
Funny, I just had a Fairy Marine hull number 506 in my shop tonight. I have taken some pictures of the interior which has been updated from original.
I think you will be surprized at the thickness most wooden albacore use on decks and bouyancy tanks. Sufice to say, one could easily punch your fist or put your knee through a deck. 1/4" is way to thick and think you should be in the 1/8" range.
I can tell you are an engineer. Your boat weight is great. I like to refinish my boats mid winter as humidity is very low. As far as time to reduce moisture, I don't know but I would suspect a couple of months.
If you are 230 in weight with the board out and the boat rigged you will need to add 10 lbs of lead to bring you up to the 240 class minimum weight. So efforts you make to loose weight will be countered (if you choose to be class legal and wish to race) with the requirement to have to add lead. Keep in mind that only 5kg of corrector weights can be fwd of the transom and the rest must be mounted on the transom, not a great place to have weight.
If you send me your email address I can fwd some pictures I took tonight of 506 that has a new interior in it. I will also pass along the new owners information in the event you need to contact him for more detailed pictures ect.
Thanks for keeping us posted. We would really love to see some pictures!
Jeff
P.s. I have your email address, I will send you the pictures.
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Peter Duncan
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| Posted: 03 November 2005 at 5:46am | IP Logged
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Brian-
Jeff is right on all counts.
I used a lot of 3 and 5 mm plywood to rebuild #342. Idea is to create a frame structure to carry the load (use 2-4" wide arched plywood braces on edge under the deck) and then the actual deck is just a thin skin to keep out water and look nice. I think I was bracing across bow area about every 12" with 3mm ply set on edge. Once bonded/filleted to the deck the structure is very strong. You can punch it with impact loading, but as long as you avoid the knee or heel to deck, it will be strong enough for use.
Seat tanks were done the same way (but no arch).
Class rules require hull weight to be at least 240 lb. with gear as Jeff described. If you are at 230 lb now (including rigging), you have a fairly light Albacore. If you have already stripped hull of all gear, you are about 15-20 lb above target.
Modern boats carry about 20-25 pounds of rigging above a totally stripped hull weight. We target to get hulls to 210-215 lb so that we have to add about 5 lb of corrector weights under the thwart, but none on the transom. Being 5-10 lb. overweight is not a huge penalty. Most racing boats are in the 240-250 lb. range. After that racers will begin to devalue a boat and probably not purchase at all if it is more than 20-30 lb overweight.
I did extensive estimates of material, fasteners and coating weight as I rebuilt #342 to bring it in close to the minimum. I ended up at about 247 lb. Much less than the 260 lb it was (all rigged) before I started the restoration.
Of course all of this is only critical if you plan to measure the boat and race. Even if you don't plan to race, keeping the boat "raceable" will protect its value. Daysailor boats tend to sell for much less (50%?) what a raceable boat would sell for.
Peter
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Peter Duncan
Albacore 342 and 6434
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Rubbermaid
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Joined: 16 January 2005
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Posts: 231
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| Posted: 03 November 2005 at 11:50am | IP Logged
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Any kind of old find like that is worth bringing back to life - if enough of what remains is fixable and you're willing to put the time into it. Regardless of whether it's GRP or wood, full restorations always take longer than building from scratch - sometimes more than twice as long. We had this old 1950 Honeymooner with rotten frames, a split keel and sprung planks, many of which had previously been replaced. I told the man who bought it to take the lines off the boat and saw off the ballast keel. Given how much of the wood needed replacing, he'd have been better off building a duplicate hull around the existing keel. But he was dead-set on restoring it!
Just when you think you've seen light at the end of the tunnel and you're a 'month or two' away from launch, there's always something new you missed that you have to dig out and repair; then a year goes by. In a worst-case scenario, it's possible to end up replacing a significant percentage of the materials in the boat, so that what you wind up with is ultimately not the original anyway.
Knowing what I know now, I'd never have re-done mine, even though the result was nice. So little of my original boat even remains. Had I not restored it, I could have already been 2 or 3 years into different project. But if you can preserve much of what already exists without having to discard it, then it's very definitely worth doing yourself - a very satisfying experience. Plus, you're preserving a bit of history for the class, which is cool...
(A small word of wisdom I forgot to include in this post): If you restore it, do the entire thing completely and do it well the first time! There's nothing more discouraging than doing a half-job, and then having the whole thing rot out from under you in a couple of seasons. You don't want to ever have to do anything major again on the boat for another ten or twenty years!
Edited by Rubbermaid on 03 November 2005 at 12:20pm
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- Kent McAvoy
Albacore No. 3964
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helmsman
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| Posted: 05 November 2005 at 2:55pm | IP Logged
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Just a quick note. That 230 pounds was without hardware but before stripping the finish and replacing the decks,seats, and trunk. I'm a little concerned about this weight because I want to fair the outside and put 6oz glass on it; epoxy everything; add a forefoot tank and add full seat tanks to the stern. On another note, as soon as I can commandeer my son ( many years younger and much more computer savvy) to help me I will post some pictures.
Brian
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Peter Duncan
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| Posted: 05 November 2005 at 9:56pm | IP Logged
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Brian-
Here are several weight estimates that I used while rebuilding 342. Before starting work in rigged racing state (less CB and other items rules allow to be excluded) she weighed 263 lb. - 23 lb over the minimum.
You can see below how I kept close track and worked my estimates to bring it in on target. You should be able to do the same by designing your structures, picking your materials and estimating volumes and densities to estimate weight.
Estimate #1
At outset of project, I estimated components and worked back toward what my hull shell (stripped of all fittings, decks and seats) would have to be.
Hull (est) 165 lb.
CB case (est) 9 lb.
seats/tanks 17 lb
bow deck 9 lb
side decks 15 lb
thwart 7 lb
epoxy/paint 28 lb
Total 250 lb
This told me that my structures were probably too heavy (as no fittings were as yet in the weight budget), so I would have to beat all of those numbers. Since boat was in need of rebuild in any case, I went to work, hoping for a better than estimated outcome.
I left the deck on (to preserve shape) and did the interior- stripping out seats and centerboard case and rebuilding with full tanks and new cb trunk. I put three coats of WEST on hull and had it primed and painted to final coat (did this with old deck to preserve shape and avoid damaging new deck in transport- boat went to painter upside down).
Estimate #2
At this point hull was sealed (WEST epoxy) and painted (final coat- Imron). Internal structure (seat tanks from chainplates to transom and half-height bow tank) all installed and coated. Using actual weight of hull at that point (deck and gunwales removed) and estimates of density of material for decks, supports and thwart, I arrived at the following:
Actual Hull weight (as described above) 175-180 lb.
Fittings (est) 15-20 lb
Thwart (est) 5-10 lb
Bowdeck 4 mm ply (est) 5-6 lb.
Bowdeck supports (est) 2-4 lb
Epoxy (coating and bonding) (est) 2-4 lb
Gunwales (est) 8-10 lb (I used white oak!)
Sidedeck (est) 3-5 lb
Sidedeck supports (est) 2-4 lb
Total estimated weight 217-243 lb.
Estimate #3
I later weighed boat with guwales, bow and side decks installed and found actual weight to be 213 lb.
Hull (as described above) 213 lb.
Fittings (est) 15-20 lb
Thwart (est) 5-10 lb
Epoxy remaining (est) 2-4 lb
Total estimated weight 235-247 lb.
Estimate #4
Later weight of assembled hull except items noted below gave an actual weight of 218 lb.
Hull weight (actual) 218 lb
fittings (est) 15-20 lb.
floor boards (est) 7 lb (oops I'd forgotten these in earlier estimates)
Total estimated weight 240-245 lb.
Final weight
Final weight came in at 247 lb.
This boat started at 263 lb. with standard blocks and rigging (about the same as estimated above) and the Fairey Marine bow and side deck (stern deck had been removed before this weighing), CB case and seats (open, no tanks).
So it would not be surprising to remove about 15-20 lb by just removing the Fairey decks, thwart, cb case and seats and replacing them with full seat tanks, bow tank and modern decks. I used some white oak in gunwales and floorboards and maple for bow deck carlin. All of this was overkill and probably added 5-10 lb of unnecessary weight to the finished boat.
If you can design components that fit in my weight estimates above, you should come out pretty close in the end.
Peter
Edited by Peter Duncan on 05 November 2005 at 10:18pm
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Peter Duncan
Albacore 342 and 6434
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helmsman
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| Posted: 10 December 2005 at 7:14am | IP Logged
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Things are moving along over here on the restoration.I have removed the seats and the centreboard trunk and have stripped half the inside. Pictures are available at www.imagestation.com and search for albacore restoration.
Surprise! The rot at the transom is more serious than first appeared. Gee, who ever would have guessed. I may have to remove the transom to get working space to replace the bottom veneers for about a foot out from the stern. Two questions arise. Does anyone have any advice to give on what the new transom should look like and how to do the tearout. Secondly, I will have to replace about one square foot of bottom by creating new veneers and fairing them in to the old. I thought I would need to make an inner mould to do this, romove the offending veneers, then build up the new layers one at a time. Any comments?
Brian
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bigbad
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| Posted: 10 December 2005 at 7:20am | IP Logged
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I guess the question that comes to mind is how many layers of the veneer are rotten? I'm not sure if these old Fairys are two or three layers of ply.
Once we know if we are dealing with one rotten layer or multiple, we may be able to suggest a plan of attack.
Jeff
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Peter Duncan
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| Posted: 10 December 2005 at 10:50am | IP Logged
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Most Fairly Marines (certainly those in the #470-650 range) were made of 3 plys in a hot mold process.
I've heard that boat #3 was a 2 ply boat, and it did not last. I've heard that a few in the #20-30 range might have been 4 ply boats. But as far as I know everything else Fairey built is 3 ply.
PD
Edited by Peter Duncan on 10 December 2005 at 4:13pm
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Peter Duncan
Albacore 342 and 6434
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bigbad
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| Posted: 10 December 2005 at 1:45pm | IP Logged
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Brian,
Assuming you have 3 layers, are you rotten on all three? You might be able to use the good layer of veneer as a base to scarf in the replacement.
Could you send pictures of the infected area to my email address so I possibly can better assist.
georgianbaymarina@sympatico.ca
jeff
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helmsman
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| Posted: 11 December 2005 at 7:37pm | IP Logged
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Jeff:
This is a three layer boat, and surprisingly its total thickness is 5/16 in. not 1/4 as the deck and seats.
You have a good point, upon inspection I may be able to use the sound inner veneers as a base for most of it, however, there are a few areas -no larger than 3 sq. in. each that are rotten right through.
Thinking out loud, I may be able to rout off the rotten outer veneers and replace them one face at a time, come to think about it, I may be able to use a similar method for the holes: replace the outer veneer then go to the inner face and replace the inner veneers. I'll send pictures as soon as they are available.
On another issue, man this hull is bumpy! It would appear that it was stored on the bilge keels either for a long time or with the wood saturated because there's inward hollows at both keels. In addition, it's pretty bumpy anyway. I figure that it doesn't matter how bumpy the inside is and I can fair the outside when the time comes. I'm thinking that I won't try to force it back into fair shape because it's best not to have the hull in a state of static stress. So I'm thinking that to fair the outside I'll apply red cedar veneers to the big hollows because that'll be lighter, stronger, and less likely to crack than a thick (up to 1/4 in. in some spots) layer of epoxy and microbaloons.Of course I'll still use the epoxy mix to fair the shallower dents. I haven't worked much with this mixture of "smooge" so I don't know how it behaves on a hull. Any comments?
Brian
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bigbad
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| Posted: 12 December 2005 at 7:38am | IP Logged
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I need to see the boat before I can suggest a stratagy. I'll try and get out your way prior to the holidays. You may have to buy me a beer!
jeff
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North American Albacore Forum : General Discussion
Topic: Fairey Mark 1 restoration
